Maruijana?

[D.S. of Soviet Sexy Girls]

There are many illegal ciggarette smuggling in Western Europe.

[Grothistan]

Damn, I find a world were marijuana is legalized and as wide consumed as tobacco horrible. High people everywhere

Seen that marijuahna doesn't have the same tradition in the western world as alcohol, I would find it most amazing if it ever reached a popularity even near that of alcohol. Besides, how often are you around high people? I think I can say that I've been around my share of high people, and generaly, they are calmer and more relaxed than those who have consumed alcohol (and I've been around those too, lol). I've never seen people who were high being aggresive, but it's only a few weeks since I was at a party, where a drunk dude was threatening someone with a bottle.

More seriously, the economical impact of a legalization would be fairly low, imo. And it would be very hard, even impossible to control all the market. Illegal selling (I mean outside of government's control) would continue, probably more in bigger countries such as France or the UK (Interesting to note that countries having legalize it are, mostly, rather small countries).

Two examples I can bring up are alcohol and prostitution. Both have been illegal in several western countries, and legalizing has nearly erazed the illegal market, in the countries (or states, for the US) where it was illegal.

Having cannabis legalized, also means that the "bad batches" will be very uncommon. When booze was illegal in the states, people were often sold bad alcohol, which included dangers such as blindless, and even death. Today, there are still people putting harder drugs in pre-rolled joints (which is why I only buy pre-rolled from people I know well, or who have a good reputation), to introduce you to the drugs, without your own knowledge. If it is legalized, the people doing this can be prosecuted for their crimes.

[small green plants]

I am definitely in favour of Marijuana.
Quite frankly I have never been able to come to terms with the outcry against weed. I have been a regular user for more than 30 years now and It amuses me to read hopelessly uninformed ranting by the "ban the evil weed" brigade.
Weed is definitely non-addictive. Although I have suffered cravings for a cigarette, I have never craved a spliff. I haven't turned psychotic ( well at least I don't think so), or developed any of the things I'm supposed to have done,

Oh and a good forum on this can be found at

www.uk420.com the store stocks some pretty nice objects.

Right , time for a glass of wine and a toke

Relaxing...................... Hmmmmmm..................

[canteria]

Yes. Alchohol is far more dangerous that marijuana, because it can give violent impulses. While both are stupid, we'd be worse of with them illegal, because that would create a pwerful black market.

[small green plants]

Marijuana fully legal... No thanks, all that would then happen is the government would subject it to a punitive taxation scheme.

[D.S. of Soviet Sexy Girls]

I was being sarcastic in my first sentence Grothistan... But, Many of my friends consume it, even my own brother, and I don't particularly like to see them High, since they are getting pretty dangerous for themselves, and acting like idiots (the same for alcohol, I have never encountered someone aggressive with alcohol).

And SGP you may have been using it for 30 years and are still unaffected on matters of health, but I wouldn't generalize your very own case. That is pretty the same for tobacco, some people dies early of it, some reach 100 years of age while smoking a package each day. However, the people affected are always more numerous than the un-affected one. And I maintain that "weed" is psychologically addictive.

[Grothistan]

I was being sarcastic in my first sentence Grothistan... But, Many of my friends consume it, even my own brother, and I don't particularly like to see them High, since they are getting pretty dangerous for themselves, and acting like idiots (the same for alcohol, I have never encountered someone aggressive with alcohol).

Well, hard to tell. Many people use the argument that they don't want to be around high people all the time, as a reason to keep it illegal.

If you've never seen anyone aggresive because of alcohol, I must applaud you for hanging with a very good crowd of people. Most of my near friends (and myself, for that matter) don't get aggresive because of alcohol. But I've met a hell of a lot of people who "just felt like beating someone up", while they were drunk. I've also been threatened by drunk people, and one time been in a fight because of people who had been drinking. Again, that has never happened for me, while around high people.

And I maintain that "weed" is psychologically addictive.

It can be, yes. But that's also the case for chewing gum, cellphones, ice-tea and possums. In short, anything can be "psychologically addictive."

[Revolutionary Masses]

:)Arg this topic is hot!
First question answer: Mental illness is mostly I belive paranoia, skitzophrenia (sp) and other such disorders including personality change, decrease in memory and reflexes. It varies with genetic make-up, Grothistan appears to carry the resistant gene :.). But for some it can be lethal, this is much more risky in the young, chemicals and growing minds shouldnt be mixed!

Second addiction: Varies between individual but many do end up craving and as the body becomes more tollerant of the drug, the person requires a larger dose for the same effect, eventually someone offers somthing a little stronger and you fill in the rest.

True that alcohol users dont move onto bleach and medical alcohol, but there is a simple explanation as the last time I checked medical alcohol was foul and its considered a bit odd in the UK to sit down with a pint of toilet duck (also its fatal...which is probably why it hasnt caught on) ;D

Lower the crime rates, yes it would. But thats just an excuse for faliure, the crimes still there you just dont class it as a crime anymore. LOL you could wipe off all laws and then there would be no crime at all!!! Still wouldnt be the perfect world those words imply though would it?

[Grothistan]

:)Arg this topic is hot!

It's gettin' hot in here, so take off all... Wait, this isn't a Nelly Kareoké-bar. Sorry 'bout that.

First question answer: Mental illness is mostly I belive paranoia, skitzophrenia (sp) and other such disorders including personality change, decrease in memory and reflexes. It varies with genetic make-up, Grothistan appears to carry the resistant gene :.). But for some it can be lethal, this is much more risky in the young, chemicals and growing minds shouldnt be mixed!

These mental illneses, I believe, is what they call a "has-psycoses" (sorry, english as a 2nd language). While indeed dangerous, it is very rare. You see, you can't just get this no matter what. You need to be mentally fragile, and probably have some kind of traume which is activated while high. But dangerous as it is (and it really is dangerous), we need to compare to one of the legal drugs out there - Alcohol. Alcohol-poisoning is relatively common (I believe that if you have more than 5 drinks, you're body is poisoned. And who stops at 5 drinks?! ). If the level of toxicity is too high, the risk of death is introduced. See, contrary to cannabis, alcohol itself can help you, with no outside help. Drink enough, and you either pass out or die. Luckily, most people just pass out, but as with cannabis, there are simply people who are in the risk-zone.

More troubling, however, is the risk of halting experience-gathering, which cannabis can indeed do, if you use it too much. But there are similar threats from alcohol. Basically, I believe that it is the obligation of the parents and teachers, to let youngsters know not to misuse any drug.

Second addiction: Varies between individual but many do end up craving and as the body becomes more tollerant of the drug, the person requires a larger dose for the same effect, eventually someone offers somthing a little stronger and you fill in the rest.

The thing here is, that if you feel that you "need" to smoke cannabis, it's something you're imagining. With nicotine and caffeine, your body gets used to functioning while these drugs are in your body, and you adapt. Over time, your body needs caffeine/nicotine to function properly. There is nothing in tetrahydrocannabinol (THC, the stuff in cannabis that makes you high) which introduces this.

It is true that you body become tollerant to the drug, and you need more to gain the same effect. When I began smoking again, which is something like 6 or 7 months ago, I just needed one joint to get blasted. Now I need two or three over a relatively short time, to get the same effect (during the summer-vacation, they had to be bloody strong too). But I have never felt a need to smoke it. It's something I do because it's fun, not because I have a need. Hence, it doesn't matter if a month passes by without a joint. Just means it'll be easier to gain the effect you want, next time.

True that alcohol users dont move onto bleach and medical alcohol, but there is a simple explanation as the last time I checked medical alcohol was foul and its considered a bit odd in the UK to sit down with a pint of toilet duck (also its fatal...which is probably why it hasnt caught on) ;D

Well, if you ask me, or most of my friends who smoke, we'd classify cocaine, heroine etc. as foul too. And if you've got low-tolerance, or are just unlucky, most hard drugs are quite fatal too. It isn't exactly a sign of supreme social position to inject drugs into your veins either

Lower the crime rates, yes it would. But thats just an excuse for faliure, the crimes still there you just dont class it as a crime anymore. LOL you could wipe off all laws and then there would be no crime at all!!! Still wouldnt be the perfect world those words imply though would it?

The question here is, should it be a crime? If I smoke a joint, am I a hazard to society, who deserves to pay a large fine, and get a stain on my record which will keep me from getting a job in the next 5 years (that's how it works here)? In my opinion, it will remove the laws which are unfair, and are a greater risk to society, than the people it punishes. Many brilliant minds and creators have used cannabis - It is not merely a drug for the marginalized in society, who find it refuge from the world in its effects.

[Revolutionary Masses]

Basically, I believe that it is the obligation of the parents and teachers, to let youngsters know not to misuse any drug.

I totally agree, but I define missuse as use in the case of recreational drugs, except when a medical advantage can be gained for using it.

There is nothing in tetrahydrocannabinol (THC, the stuff in cannabis that makes you high) which introduces this.

This is incorrect, out of the 5.6million reported users in the US a study showed that 2million were shown to be proven addicts. 220 000 in the treatment program used the drug in question primarily!

Well, if you ask me, or most of my friends who smoke, we'd classify cocaine, heroine etc. as foul too. And if you've got low-tolerance, or are just unlucky, most hard drugs are quite fatal too. It isn't exactly a sign of supreme social position to inject drugs into your veins either

True but injection is generally the final form of progression. Many believe that drugs are safe and can be gotten away with, also there is a positive social aspect of taking drugs in a certain way, you get addicted to the drugs and then progress through the stages all starting from being a social user.

The question here is, should it be a crime? If I smoke a joint, am I a hazard to society, who deserves to pay a large fine, and get a stain on my record which will keep me from getting a job in the next 5 years (that's how it works here)? In my opinion, it will remove the laws which are unfair, and are a greater risk to society, than the people it punishes. Many brilliant minds and creators have used cannabis - It is not merely a drug for the marginalized in society, who find it refuge from the world in its effects.

In short yes you should! Those requiring addictive drugs to escape regulary are weak in my opinion, they should have more self control! Harsh maby, but ive never had to resort to it and ive had my share of depression and mishap.

[Grothistan]

I totally agree, but I define missuse as use in the case of recreational drugs, except when a medical advantage can be gained for using it.

Shouldn't this too apply for alcohol, then?

This is incorrect, out of the 5.6million reported users in the US a study showed that 2million were shown to be proven addicts. 220 000 in the treatment program used the drug in question primarily!

No, those 2 million believed they were addicts. It is a simple scientific fact that you can not be addicted to THC in the original meaning of the word "addiction." Addiction to THC can best be compared to something psycological disorders, such as kleptomania and fear of flying. Your body will never, ever, tell you that you need THC - If anything does that, it's your brain.

True but injection is generally the final form of progression. Many believe that drugs are safe and can be gotten away with, also there is a positive social aspect of taking drugs in a certain way, you get addicted to the drugs and then progress through the stages all starting from being a social user.

I think you are underestimating the values of cannabis-users. We don't look at cannabis as just "another drug." We don't consider it to be belonging along with cocaine, amphethamine etc. We see it as a relatively harmless drug, which should be legal, just as alcohol.

In short yes you should! Those requiring addictive drugs to escape regulary are weak in my opinion, they should have more self control! Harsh maby, but ive never had to resort to it and ive had my share of depression and mishap.

I think you are a bit confussed. See, THC is very mood-enchanting. This means that if you use it while happy, you'll like become very happy, and if you use it while sad, you'll likely become very sad. As such, using cannabis while being depressed is simply not logical. As I said in my first post, one of my principles is to only use it socially. Another one of mine is to only use it when I'm in a good mood.

The majority of us don't use it to "get away", we use it to have fun. Do we need it, to have fun? No, but it's another way of having fun. At one time, smoking cannabis was against my principles. But I got interested in the subject, and I read intensively on the matter. When I smoked my first joint, I wasn't betraying my ideals or principles. It wasn't done becaue of a lack of self-control - I was perfectly aware of what I was doing, and I genuinly wanted to do it.

But, using your theory, are people who drink alcohol "weak" too? And since when should we start punishing people for being weak?

On the same path, just because you don't want to do it, why should no one else be allowed to? I'm sure you can see how this logic could quickly lead to a very screwed world.

Please, allow me to make a hypothetical example.

This is John. John is studying medicine, is making progress, and has no problem keeping up. He regularly uses cannabis for relaxation, and to have fun. One day, cannabis is found in his locker. He is expelled from his college, and has to serve 2 years in a prison. When he gets out, he can't find a decent job. Is this a victory for society? I would say no.

[EuroSoviets]

This is one of those things where I don't really have an opinion. The only reason I don't use marijuana is that it never seemed too pleasant. I was the same with alcohol until I found something I liked the smell and taste of. I also don't like smoking so a joint would never be an issue with me even if I was going to use marijuana.

I have no problem with marijuana - but as with alcohol and cigarettes I do not think it should be in the hands of capitalist companies. Were marijuana to become legal, we would face quite a change to the system. Advertisements would become legal, money from marijuana sales would be used to support or oppose politicians and to do other less salubrious things. If it were government-regulated, there would be major problems for the economy with the World Bank and other such organisations. For me it is one of those questions which gets relegated to post-revolutionary democracy.

[Grothistan]

The major problem with that is that, well, there's not really a revolution in progress in any western country, atleast as far as I know. But if your problem is that you don't want the money to end up in the hands of the capitalists, isn't that kinda killing all invention? Capitalist society or not, progress is neccesary. And I think the legalization of cannabis is a neccesary progress.

[The Red Factions]

Given the medical merits of cannabis and because of the scientific studies that have confirmed that it can not cause addiction, coupled with the fact that the regular consumption of joints is definitly not a fact leading to an assured life of misery and various social problems - there is no reason for the government to impose the current restrictive legislations in place

Just as achohol, when taken reasonably, marijuana is an acceptable recreational drug that even has medical applications! I find it to be relaxing and stimulates my imagination, hence it's recurrent use amongst artists. For the extremly vast majority of users, marijuana is no more a danger for the health than alcohol. Marijuana and other soft drugs should be legal just like cigarettes and alcohol.

Furthermore, all citizens should have the right to make their own decisions concerning their body - we are entitled to our citizen rights! All it's doing now is unecessarily creating criminals like "John" and encouraging the maintenance of an underground and criminal drugnetwork whose money is used to finance much more dirtier business usually.

The legalisation of marijuana is essential from a democratic perspective - there is no reason whatsoever to keep it illegal.

[TheMightyPump]

Heh. It's so satisfying to kick off a debate. I won't bother arguing my corner as Groth has done that for me. *Ruffles hair*