Anarchotopia
No Longer In TPC
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Post by Anarchotopia on Jul 1, 2005 20:02:25 GMT
I've just been reading this. I can't see that this summit or any like it will do little in terms of its stated aims. Does the G8 Summit matter, will it make a difference? And should we even be pinning any hope on it changing things anyway?
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Post by Star City on Jul 1, 2005 21:36:49 GMT
If anything ever changes on the world political/social/economic stage due to the actions of politicians during my lifetime, I will be fucking surprised (if I were to express myself like Saint Geldof of Ethiopia)
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EuroSoviets
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Post by EuroSoviets on Jul 2, 2005 6:34:52 GMT
In answer to A: No, no and no.
Expect Gordon Brown (to take our native example) to cancel third world debt? When the Western World makes a bundle on the interest payments alone (which incidentally have by now exceeded the original loan)? You must be bloody joking.
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Post by Paranoidm on Jul 2, 2005 18:04:56 GMT
Well at least some people are trying instead of sitting around talking about it.
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Post by kandarin on Jul 2, 2005 23:53:17 GMT
Having a huge national debt hasn't stopped the United States or any other Western country from having a high standard of living (although exceptions exist in all these countries, as I am often reminded). Africa's problem isn't debt, it's a culture of corruption, reliance on voodooesque pagan spirituality, and especially the fact that virtually all of their leaders are murderous despots.
Nobody with an opinion on the G8 summit or involved in the summit itself seems to be concerned about these issues, so I can't see a difference being made as a result of the summit.
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EuroSoviets
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Post by EuroSoviets on Jul 3, 2005 0:32:30 GMT
Bollocks Kandarin.
I'll grant you, the debt means absolutely bugger all; it saps government revenue from government budgets but that is not even a part of the problem. The 'structual adjustment' packages of the the IMF-World Bank are more of a problem, the TRIPS agreement of the WTO is a better one.
The developed capitalist nations control the world economy. The EU is the only economic power that can offer sanctions against the US without being seriously affected by retaliation and the same is true in reverse; but with Africa, the resources of the African nations can be hit with tariffs for a vast number of reasons. These include the government not playing ball with US foreign policy - and the WTO rolls over and plays dead.
In contrast, nations like Brazil and South Africa have faced humiliating dictats from the World Bank and WTO regarding public service spending and how the public monopoly on things like water is an illegal monopoly. In South Africa, the private companies which bought the water companies began turning off water supplies to those who couldn't pay - and the prices were hugely increased because international capital dictates that the government is not allowed to subsidise industry.
Such poverty is not caused by any reticence; it is caused by the legacy of British, French, German, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese imperialism and the legacy of the United States fighting a war by proxy in Africa with the Russians. The governments that are in power are in power either because they are financed by international capital, having at heart the interests thereof or they are in power because they have a military base built up from armaments and money supplied by, guess who is top on the list...the USA. With Russia right behind. Or both. Inadequate government will be solved once we purge our own systems of the corrupt bastards who used and use those poverty stricken people like chess pieces.
As for venereal disease the problem is the Catholic Church for the most part. Screw paying for drugs - buy the whole continent fifty years supply of condoms and the transmission of sexual disease will drop like a stone. On the matter of drugs incidentally, you know the United States is at the front of trade sanction wars against African nations who allow drug companies to lower their prices below what American trade policy dictates?
Para: they're doing bugger all except giving publicity to some pop strumpets and their pimps. If they want to do something useful storm the G8, drag the bastards to a wall, blindfold them and give them a nice cigarette to smoke.
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Post by Jako on Jul 3, 2005 13:37:56 GMT
Oh yeah why don't you go do that big tough guy? Go start your revolution.
It won't be long till we can find out whether the summit can make a difference. Never before has there been such huge public attention and pressure on the G8 leaders. There are left-wing cynics and there are right-wing cynics, but ultimately all your cynicism is the same. Let's see whether you're proved right. And whether the efforts of the Make Poverty History campaign and all those involved in Live 8 was just an ego-boosting waste of time.
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Post by Star City on Jul 3, 2005 14:16:42 GMT
Well I was correct about there being no WMD in Iraq, so let's just wait and see...
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EuroSoviets
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Post by EuroSoviets on Jul 3, 2005 14:34:44 GMT
Jako, this 'revolution' that Madonna was babbling on about, do you, even you as much as I detest your evolutionist nonsense, do you believe that these pop-whores and their bastard owners will make a difference?
Do you for one second believe that poverty can be eradicated under capitalism?
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Anarchotopia
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Post by Anarchotopia on Jul 3, 2005 17:34:50 GMT
Oh yeah why don't you go do that big tough guy? Go start your revolution. It won't be long till we can find out whether the summit can make a difference. Never before has there been such huge public attention and pressure on the G8 leaders. There are left-wing cynics and there are right-wing cynics, but ultimately all your cynicism is the same. Let's see whether you're proved right. And whether the efforts of the Make Poverty History campaign and all those involved in Live 8 was just an ego-boosting waste of time. I've got to be frank I'm getting pretty tired of people calling dissenters cynics. Its not cynicism its analysis, these views are based on fact. The so called aid is linked to neo liberal "reform" which means more people starving or killing each others. It's no surprise that the amount spent on "aid" is outstripped by a huge margin by arms sales (recent Indy article showed this)...
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EuroSoviets
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Post by EuroSoviets on Jul 3, 2005 17:51:30 GMT
Well I don't know about you A, but I am a cynic and damned if I don't have good reason to be.
This system has had over a hundred and fifty years in which to 'make poverty history' and do you know what Jako? The Victorians gave more to charity and were more involved with charity more so than anyone alive today - it was a way of life for the aristocracy, particularly for women. The studies of Seebohm Rowntree and the other great sociologists and founders of the Labour movement that continued to form the Labour Party (yeah Jako, nice work on knowing the history of your Party there) showed extremely clearly that what caused poverty was low wages - and what drove wages down was the need for profit.
Africa is under the boot of capital and until we remove the power of capital, nothing will change. Poverty might move around a bit from one area to another and back as soon as the Western media and tree-hugging liberal hippy doe-eyed idiots forget about it. It is no different from Victorian England - but the solution must be different. This time we can tolerate no Labourites such as McDonald and his professional class sell outs of a workers' movement.
No amount of money thrown in aid will change Africa because the amounts which can be sent will never fill the blackhole that sucks it back out by overcharging on AIDS drugs and such practices. It is time the liberal left sat up and took note that pop-whore Madonna talking about revolution isn't going to change anything.
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Post by Jako on Jul 3, 2005 20:06:53 GMT
I've got to be frank I'm getting pretty tired of people calling dissenters cynics. Its not cynicism its analysis, these views are based on fact. The so called aid is linked to neo liberal "reform" which means more people starving or killing each others. It's no surprise that the amount spent on "aid" is outstripped by a huge margin by arms sales (recent Indy article showed this)... Erm, A have you actually read the demands of Make Poverty History? It is specifically campaigning AGAINST this situation where aid is only given in exchange for Western corporations and governments making a profit. From the aims of MPH... "Aid needs to focus better on poor people's needs. This means more aid being spent on areas such as basic health care and education. It should no longer be conditional on recipients promising economic change like privatising or deregulating their services, cutting health and education spending, or opening up their markets. Aid should support poor countries' and communities' own plans and paths out of poverty." And the MPH coalition is made out of organisations such as the Arms Reduction Coalition (www.arcuk.org) lobbying against the international arms trade.
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EuroSoviets
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Post by EuroSoviets on Jul 3, 2005 20:22:01 GMT
Which neatly sidesteps my argument which is entirely unrelated to A's point.
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Post by Jako on Jul 3, 2005 21:00:22 GMT
Jako, this 'revolution' that Madonna was babbling on about, do you, even you as much as I detest your evolutionist nonsense, do you believe that these pop-whores and their bastard owners will make a difference? Do you for one second believe that poverty can be eradicated under capitalism? Well, Dear Comrade, surely you must realise that when most people talk about revolutions they don't appreciate the finer points of Marxist-Leninism. Everyone likes to babble on about revolutions. "You can't stop...The children of the revoluuuuution...Oh no you can't stop....The children of the revoluuuution" (Anyone else think Pete Doherety is a wee bit overblown by the media?) It doesn't matter whether they're just "pop-whores" or whatever derogatory term you feel like labeling them with. The fact is that the Live 8 campaign has raised the public consciousness about Africa's plight, and also raised expectations on the G8 to deliver change. Raising awareness is in itself a positive act. I'm sure that Mariah Carey doesn't understand or care much about the finer points of debt relief and wealth redistribution. But the publicity stars such as herself lend to the campaign all contributes to mass pressure. The G8 leaders will not be able to ignore this pressure. Of course I'm not expecting there to being problems and some members not willing to endorse the Make Poverty History manifesto (USA, USA, USA!). But let's just see what deal can be brockered. And what progress would be made if Live 8 hadn't happened, and no-one in the country except the small number who are very interested in politics were talking about these issues? Do I think famine, mass homelessness, preventable diseases can be eradicated under 'capitalism'? Yes. Do I think basic living standards, living wages, public healthcare and education systems can be established under 'capitalism'? Yes. It's been done in the Western world, and so it can be done in Africa. Do I think equality can be achieved under capitalism? No of course not - but that's not the issue here. Just because the Make Poverty History movement isn't anti-capitalist doesn't mean you should instantly dismiss it. I'm still waiting for your 'revolution' to change anything. I will discuss this more when I have time.
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Post by Star City on Jul 3, 2005 23:03:56 GMT
The fact is that the Live 8 campaign has raised the public consciousness about Africa's plight, and also raised expectations on the G8 to deliver change. Raising awareness is in itself a positive act. 1) Watch African debt drop off the media radar in the near future when something more voyeuristic comes along 2) Raising awareness might be a positive act, but how much self-pleasure are people getting out of it?
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